Commercial IF

David Whyld · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:10 pm

Thought I'd start a new thread for this seeing as it's drifted away from Malinche and his games.

Merk wrote:

I think it will only ever work on a small scale, but I see nothing wrong with that. Several things would have to happen, though.

1) The game(s) would need to be excellent, entertaining, and of pretty good length.
2) They would need to be cheap. $5 each, or maybe $10 for a set of three.
3) The support of the community would be necessary. Look what happens without it.
4) The author(s) would need to build a following. People buy what they already like.
5) It would need to be taken seriously. No half-assed order fulfillment.

#3 and #4 are the hard parts, because it seems so difficult to get the community to support *anything* that strays from established norms. They can be downright brutal and vindictive, from the looks of things. Also, the IF authors who have the best chance of writing IF that would garner name recognition aren't going to charge for their games anyway.

I'd do it just to force myself to write better IF. I'd do it just so I could stay motivated. I have a sick feeling, though, that the community would be against the idea no matter how much effort is put into it.

How important would RAIF's approval of the whole thing be, though? They might be the biggest collection of IF fans in the world but, as someone (I think it was Jimmy Maher) pointed out, 95% of the world probably doesn't even know that newsgroups exist.

If you were going to do a commercial game, you'd advertise it on RAIF of course, but your main audience wouldn't be the people who browse an obscure newsgroup, it'd be from the more mainstream game sites. Submit a demo to some of them*, include a note about the full game being available from X site, mention a trivial fee of something like $5, and see who bites. At such a small amount, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that *someone* would decide to give it a try. Now you aren't going to become an overnight millionaire from that sort of thing, but it'd be nice to make *something*.

* I'm using 'them' because I don't know offhand who 'they' are, but I'm sure 'they' exist.

Merk · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:31 pm

Oh, I definitely think more sales would come from outside the community than from within it. But, without community support, the project is likely to be torpedoed at every turn. Look at what came of the simple notion that newsgroups might not be the best way to conduct IF discussions, now that using them correctly and to their full potential has become such an esoteric endeavor. I mean, the kinds of nonsense I saw as a result of that was nothing short of astounding. So much non sequitur rubbish over a single topic...

But let me start over. Without community support, any public exposure this hypothetical commercial IF might get would result in a backlash. Howard Sherman seems to deserve it. Kent Tessman and Peter Nepstad, for their respective games, are favored. We'd need to do it like they do: good games, community participation, and honesty. To some degree, I feel like the forum debate that was raging not long ago may have burned a few bridges already. I got a real feeling for just how petty people can be, when it comes to challenging their comfort zones. That makes it that much harder for any of us who *are* using forums to get the kind of support and acceptance we would need from the rest of the community. I guess what it boils down to is, don't piss people off. Confused

Even without community support, the lack of community ill-will would help.

David Whyld · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:15 pm

I'd like to think that the more open-minded folk on RAIF would be all in favour of a commercial project as, hopefully, it would be a step towards the idea of an actual commercial base for IF. And the more open-minded folk probably *would* be in favour of it. Unfortunately, as the recent thread on there highlighted only too well, the open-minded ones are in a definite minority, and are far less vocal than the rest. I get the impression that some of them would openly criticise *any* commercial IF game, even if you charged an absolute pittance for it, even if you gave away your proceeds to charity, because that's just the way they are.

But, saying that, I'm also sure there are enough people out there who *would* like the idea of commercial IF and *would* be willing to give it a try.

It's just a case of finding out who those people are.

A commercial IF game wouldn't even have to be the best thing around. I liked both "Future Boy!" and "1893" yet while there are better free games out there, people still bought the commercial ones. Find the right audience and they'll buy something, even if something similar is available elsewhere. (Why do we buy books, after all, when they're free of charge from the local library?)

The first thing to do, ideally, would be to make a demo version of the game (maybe 5% - 10% of the overall thing), test it to heaven and back to make sure it's totally bug free and you've covered every possible sensible response someone might think to type. Make the demo long enough to give people a genuine feel for what the finished product would be like, end it at a cliffhanger moment... *then* worry about getting the final product done.

Merk · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:03 pm

David Whyld wrote:

I'd like to think that the more open-minded folk on RAIF would be all in favour of a commercial project as, hopefully, it would be a step towards the idea of an actual commercial base for IF.

Maybe, but I'd be surprised if more than a half-dozen IF enthusiasts hold any hopes for a commercial comeback. That would take some serious resources. If established authors of static fiction partnered with skilled programmers (who were willing to use an IF authoring language) and co-wrote something, and if a publisher with the right know-how could put it in Barnes & Noble, Borders, Waldenbooks, Hastings, or wherever, with some PR and marketing to go along with it, maybe. I think those people could reach a market that would be very much receptive to buying interactive fiction. I believe the games would need to be more story-driven, and less puzzle-driven though, to really capture this market.

David Whyld wrote:

But, saying that, I'm also sure there are enough people out there who *would* like the idea of commercial IF and *would* be willing to give it a try.

Yeah, I think so. Reaching them is the trick.

David Whyld wrote:

It's just a case of finding out who those people are.

I think it's that segment of the public where "frequent reading of fiction" and "frequent but general computer use" intersect. Even then, it would be just a fraction of those people. Still, I can't help but think that if you put a great and accessible work of interactive fiction in professional packaging and sold it in a bookstore, it would do well. Market it not as a game, but *as* interactive fiction.

David Whyld wrote:

A commercial IF game wouldn't even have to be the best thing around. I liked both "Future Boy!" and "1893" yet while there are better free games out there, people still bought the commercial ones. Find the right audience and they'll buy something, even if something similar is available elsewhere. (Why do we buy books, after all, when they're free of charge from the local library?)

Well, I buy books because I collect (and often read). I have shelves full of sci-fi. In the case of commercial IF, though, the closer it is to "the best thing around", the easier it would be to attract customers via favorable press and reviews, right? Besides, I wouldn't want to charge if it wasn't something unique and good.

David Whyld wrote:

The first thing to do, ideally, would be to make a demo version of the game (maybe 5% - 10% of the overall thing), test it to heaven and back to make sure it's totally bug free and you've covered every possible sensible response someone might think to type. Make the demo long enough to give people a genuine feel for what the finished product would be like, end it at a cliffhanger moment... *then* worry about getting the final product done.

Yeah, if the intent is to attract a publisher. I think, though, that publishers of novels wouldn't have the first clue about (nor an interest in) publishing and distributing software, and software publishers wouldn't be inclined to distributed a text-based game. If the intent is to get a grass roots type of customer base built up before the finished product is released, I'm not sure that's a good idea either. If you show 10% while the other 90% is unfinished, that's a world of time for people to completely lose interest in the finished product. I'd rather complete the product, test and polish, and then release a demo at the same time the full package is available. Maybe later, after there is an existing base of products, having "preview" versions might work out.

Lumin · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:13 pm

I don't know if Barnes and Noble or an actual publisher is the way to go. Like I said in the thread I linked to in the Malinche discussion, I've always thought the way to sell IF would be through a website. People pay a few bucks via Paypal or whatever, and then download the game, and...you know what, I don't really feel like retyping everything, so I'll just be lazy and quote it here for anyone who didn't read the thread.

Quote:

I don't really have time to get into a long post here, but I've always thought IF games could be sold. The problem is that everytime I see people seriously discussing it on RAIF or whatever they wind up getting bogged down in unnecessary details like CDs and packaging, when really, what they need to do is go in the opposite direction.

All you need is a professional looking website to host them on, Paypal, and an open review system a la Amazon.

You pay something around five to ten dollars for a game (above that and it gets out of the 'impulse' range) and then download it. Simple.

And later:

Quote:

I actually prefer downloading a game over buying one in a store. Carrying home that pretty box is nice and all, but the contents of it usually aren't anything to write home about it. Manuals are usually thin and printed on cheap paper, and you hardly ever get cool feelies like cloth maps, etc. anymore unless you're willing to shell out $60 or more for the collector's edition.

These days I tend to pay more indie games then mainstream ones. Major reasons for this are that it's more convenient - no messing around with draconian copy protection that punish legitimate buyers, and if I ever uninstall it and then feel like playing again later, all I have to do is hang onto the email they send and can redownload it whenever I want.

Indie games also tend to be cheaper, and at the same time deliver fun and original gameplay...all the stuff that mainstream games sacrifice more and more now for the sake of the shiny graphics that drive the costs higher every year.

Anyway, back on topic, if there was ever a pay site for IF games, it stands to reason that besides the actual game, it would become more common for authors to try and get an edge on the competition by including virtual 'feelies'...PDFs, original art, wallpapers, short stories, etc.

Of course, all of this is going to take up space, and that costs money, so there would have to be something in it for whoever ran the site. Maybe every time there was a sale a percentage of the money would go to the site? Or maybe you would have to pay a small fee for putting your game up in the first place?

Seriously though, I think the main barrier to selling IF would be the IF community itself. Everyone says they want to reach a bigger audience and to see IF taken more seriously, but at the same time they seem to have this mentality that charging money for your work is bad, and won't even take simple steps like moving away from an outdated newsgroup to a website and forum somewhere new people might actually have a chance of finding them.

But in the long run, I think a nice, sleek-looking website to sell IF on would be great for the community. Authors would finally have a real incentive to break out of the snack-sized IFComp mold, and longer, more professional games would become more common. (IMHO something along the lines of the Bulldog series is easilly sellable).

But of course setting up and running the actual site would be the biggest obstacle. I know absolutely nothing about things like that, but I imagine it's harder than it looks.

Merk · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:38 pm

I need to read those posts, I guess. Smile

A website and online distribution would be the most cost-effective, yes. It's just so hard to be seen. There are what... millions and millions of websites out there, right? Thousands and thousands of home businesses with something "unique" to sell, if only the visiting masses will take notice. For IF to *really* be commercially viable, it needs an outlet. Bookstore distribution is something I think would work.

It's also something that's out of reach. People buy books even though (as David said) there are public libraries (and let's not forget the free amateur stuff readily available online) for a reason. Professional authors, professional binding, professional presentation, and retail visibility. If commercial IF can really make a mark, I believe that's how. I also find it very very unlikely that circumstances are ever going to see to that. I would imagine professional authors are comfortable and satisfied with static fiction, and I would imagine publishers have defined and refined their methods. Nobody's going to take a chance on retail IF.

So, not being a professional author and having no "ins" in the publishing industry, a website and online distribution (possibly with mail-order options for "boxed" versions) would be the route I'd necessarily take. I doubt it meet with huge success, but I wouldn't go into it with high expectations anyway. I think it would be something fun to do.

Lumin · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:11 pm

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/, or someone like them might be a good publisher to try. Even though they're still a website, they're pretty well established. (In particular you might want to check out Stormcloud's game Coliseum; it's not IF, but it's text-based just the same and is selling for $20.)

Isxek · **Posted:** Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:15 pm

Merk wrote:

I believe the games would need to be more story-driven, and less puzzle-driven though, to really capture this market.

A balance between puzzle- and story-driven games might do the trick. From what I've been scouring off Sherman's website (yes, yes, wrong thread

) and other sites related to adventures, most people tend to stick to their idea of what "interactive fiction" is - or was, which is more of a game than a story. Something that's fun and accessible, not too punishing, though they'd still welcome a real challenge or two. What matters is, there's something for everyone.

Having a slew of testers would also help in further polishing the game and making it ready for both veteran and newbie IF players.

Brian Moriarty's thoughts on commercial IF is something to read about as well, though he did not elaborate much.

I guess I'm delving more on design here than the actual publishing, but I think that's where it should all start.

dfisher · **Posted:** Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:02 am

One thing that I think may be needed for commerical IF would be much broader parsers.

It is a big shock to the system to be told things like "you can't see any such thing" when an object is obviously there in the room with you, or for the parser not to understand unnecessary commands like "go to shelves" or "turn around". These were the biggest problems for me when I was getting started. It takes quite a while to get used to the unspoken conventions of IF ...

David Whyld · **Posted:** Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:58 am

Lumin wrote:

I don't know if Barnes and Noble or an actual publisher is the way to go. Like I said in the thread I linked to in the Malinche discussion, I've always thought the way to sell IF would be through a website.

That's more the sort of thing I had in mind. Now I don't know the realities of setting up something like that, but I'm going to hazard a guess that it'll be a lot easier than persuading the likes of Barnes & Noble to display your game in their store, particularly as you'd be asking them to display your game instead of something like a novel that is a guaranteed sale.

Also, if you go along the route of having the game in a high street store, you need an attractive cover for it, a little booklet explaining what it is, etc. Cost-wise, you'd be lucky to do something like that and make any kind of profit if you were selling your game for $5 or even $10. Make it available as a download, and you'd just need the game itself.

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Commercial IF

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