intfiction.org

Okay, so I admit I'm a total newb/noob/n00b/newbie <==== [choose your preference.] I just started designing and Inform 7 about 3 days ago, and it took me hours just to figure out how to have the command "go to the door" replace "go to [specific door name]".

So I have four issues so far with this program that I have not been able to get over, but here are my basic newbile questions. I'll start with my main one:

1.) Is there a way to generate items? I don't mean create items, but actually bring non-existent items into play as an effect. The closest thing I saw to this was in chap. 8.10, on removing things from play, so you can have on-stage/off-stage. I could just make an off-stage item and bring it on-stage, but what if I don't want a set number of items? E.g., what if I wanted to make a soda-dispensing machine that could theoretically generate an infinite number of soda bottles? I'm asking this because I wanted to make a coffee shop, and I didn't like the money system they have built in for "Ex. 253 - frozen assets" because you have to take something already on the shelf in order to buy it. You can't, say, type command in "small" and generate a small coffee. I tried creating a table (basically on the same model from "Ex. 362 - complementary peanuts") and added entry that lists items, with something like "now player has/carries x entry." As I expected, it didn't really like that too much. I'm guessing partly because the item must already be located somewhere in play. But like I said, I really don't feel like making a limited number of extra items somewhere inaccessible in play. Am I missing something here?

2.) nested ifs - this has been my biggest frustration with Inform 7 so far. I must be missing something, because the colons feel pretty useless. I miss programming with Java, where a nested if is a nested if. For whatever reason, Inform hates me when I try to get it to produce multiple effects. For example, let's say I have something like this:

if player's command is topic entry:
if the price of money is less than m entry, say "Sorry bud, you don't have enough money for that.";
otherwise:
decrease price of money by m entry;
say "[commentary entry][line break]";
now player has x entry;
rule succeeds;

I can get it to work one of those effects without the colon. but not all of them. I keep running into this problem. I had to get around it with inefficiency by making phrases, like so:

Understand "go to the door" as door finding.
Understand "go to door" as door finding.
Understand "open the door" as door finding.
Understand "open door" as door finding.
Door finding is an action applying to nothing.
Report door finding: if the player can see a closed nWi door, declare dooring; otherwise say "Where's a closed door? You're losing your mind."
To declare dooring:
if the location contains exactly one closed nWi door, declare doooring;
otherwise say "which door do you mean? There is [list of doors in location]."
To declare doooring:
if the location contains a nWi door (called target), try opening the target.

Again, I must be missing something. It seems silly that I have to make two phrases instead of doing nested ifs. What the heck? What's the point of the colon if Inform gets mad at me every time I try to use it?

3.) pockets so another thing I'm really struggling with is trying to create pockets on clothes. I've made pockets. But what's really dumb is I cannot seem how to include pocketed items in take inventory. More importantly if I put something in a pocket, then I cannot take it out unless I say command "take [something] out of [pocket name]", and if I'm wearing a jacket with a pocket + pants with two pockets, this can be a hassle. I'm trying to make some basic take-out commands. Understand "take [things inside] out of [something]" as removing it from. <--so far so good. but the issue is when I need to supply a missing second-noun, which searches through all the containers I'm wearing and takes it out. Actually, I've been able to do this, but where I'm stuck is if I need to take all the container component parts of clothes out.

Understand "take [things inside] out" as taking something out.
Understand "take out [things inside]" as taking something out.
Taking something out is an action applying to one thing.

[all the remove it from checks]

Carry out taking something out:
try removing [things inside] from [every container object player is wearing/carrying + every container object that is a part of the object that the player is wearing/carrying

so the problem (to start with) is I cannot seem list all container parts of things worn by the player.

HELP!

4.) conversations last but not least. I would love a simple answer to how to make changing state conversations. So for example if I answer a particular command that matches the topic entry, how can I have the effect be to switch to another conversation table, or change the command prompt, etc?

5.) Okay one last question. If there's a great downloadable Inform 7 source code that answers any of the above questions and more that someone could recommend, I would really appreciate it. thanks

-P

Partial answers:

1: Yes, you can create brand-new items. It requires an extension. However, don't do it. Limit the player to so many items. Your game will be better; the player won't clutter up (and slow down) the game world with a bunch of story-irrelevant cruft.

2: You can nest ifs, but you can't mix them with the "if thing, comma whatever" format. Use colons everywhere.



(Also, if you use CODE tags, the bb system won't flatten out your indentation. This will make your questions easier to read.)



Don't do this; you're bypassing the parser. Write rules for the "opening" and "entering" actions to do what you want. (You could have them invoke your "door finding" action if you want, but there are probably easier alternatives.)

Thanks for the comments. Sorry like I said, I'm a noob.



1. The project I'm working on is small, and I'm not too concerned about it cluttering up. That being said, I'm open to alternatives. I just don't want to use the frozen assets model of taking items already in play. But maybe moving pre-existing items, or making invisible backdrops visible, or off-stage/on-stage. seems very convoluted to me though. Above is the model I tried but didn't work (as I pretty much expected). I know there's something wrong because it does the same thing if I order anything. Besides, if a player decides to do use all his or her money on a vending machine, it's really the player's own fault for cluttering up the world at that point .

2. as for the nested if, it seems my issue wasn't the nested if but just a misplaced quotation mark. However, I seem to have issues with the colons. I haven't noticed any consistent pattern, so maybe it's just different errors.

I'm not sure what you mean by bypassing the parser. Are you saying I shouldn't have different commands like "go to door" and "go to the door"? I just wanted to give players options so they don't have to keep guessing until they're like "Ooooh! so it's 'enter' I was supposed to type!" Really not an enjoyable experience for those not all that accustomed to IF conventions (e.g. myself).

The last question I found the answer to, but I'd still love answers to all the other questions. I'm pretty sure I'll find the answer to #4 if I keep digging.

-P

fixed it. I just switched "is" to "include" and it seems to work now. Hm! whew! now for pockets, and the other issues.

What Zarf means with "bypassing the parser" is (I think...) that you shouldn't "understand" entire phrases like "go to the door". Instead handle verb phrases and objects separately.

It's certainly not wrong to make the parser handle different wordings, it's a matter of how you do it.

For the pockets question:
If you're talking about having multiple pockets and making the player be careful about what they put where and remember where everything is stashed, I would recommend against that. You will spend a lot of time implementing it, and it will drive your players crazy. This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but if I were you, I would make use of the little-known kind, "player's holdall." It's a built-in kind that is sort of based on legacy game design, such as games in which the player can carry around all of their items in a big burlap sack, and it will do things like automatically taking things out of the holdall when the player wants to use them, and automatically put things back in when the player is holding too many things. Then, to make it seem more like the pocket is part of the player's clothes, simply refuse to allow the player to drop the holdall. If you have a game in which the PC can't take off their clothes, that's all you'd need; if they can, you can do the thing where you make it a part of the clothes.

You want to build these in the most generic way possible, so that they apply to whatever the player types.

For example, the standard rules already include the line

Understand "go into/in/inside/through [something]" as entering.

This covers several possible phrasings, and *every* game object. (So if the player types "enter window", the response will be action-specific: "That's not something you can enter".) It also understands all object synonyms, and "the" for free. On top of that, it accepts "walk into door" and "run through the door", because "walk" and "run" are declared as synonyms for "go".

It's true that "go to" is missing from this list. You could add:

Understand "go to [something]" as entering.

The parser would then understand "go to door", "walk to the door", and so on.

Thanks zarf, that makes sense. I was erroneously trying "this"/"that", not "this/that". Examples really help clarify things for me. As for the pocket issue, here's what I have:



I'm familiar with the holdall. To begin with, it won't let me make the pocket a holdall (I believe) because it only lets specific objects be a holdall (understandably). So I cannot say something like "a pocket is the player's holdall," because that would make very pocket object the player's holdall. When I try to make a specific pocket, like the left pocket, the player's holdall, it gives me this: "You wrote 'The left pocket is the player's holdall', but that seems to contradict 'A pocket called the left pocket is part of pants', as a player's holdall and a pocket are incompatible. (If a player's holdall were a kind of a pocket or vice versa there'd be no problem, but they aren't.)" I think it doesn't like component parts to be the player's holdall.

Secondly, the holdall issue does not fix either the problem of inventory, or taking items out. The character wears a backpack as his holdall. If I put a camera in the backpack and say "take inventory" it will reply: you are carrying nothing. This is easy to fix, I just need to say something along the lines of, "[list of backpack contents]" <--not exactly that, I know, but I'm sure I can eventually figure that one out if I keep messing around with it. But what I'm having more difficulty with is if I want to say "take out camera" and not "take camera out of backpack," how do I get it to search all containers the player is wearing and all the component parts of all the items the player is wearing??? How should I supply the second-noun for the modified "remove it from"?

Also, not to add to the list of questions, but does anyone know a good way to make it so you don't have to say the NPC's name whenever answering? "Ex. 91 - Sybil 1" does this, but only b/c "say yes," "say no," and "say sorry" are already actions in the list of actions. Do I have to add new actions for every response? So for example if the barista asks, "small, medium, or large?" and i don't want the player to say "barista, small" but just "small," do I have to make a new action that says "say small" or is there a simpler way to do it?

Yes -- or is that no? Anyway, player's holdall is a kind. You can have several of those. Just assert "A pocket is a kind of player's holdall" instead of "A pocket is a kind of container".

_________________
Man ska inte tro allt man tänker.