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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:30 am 
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I'm a horror fanatic. Besides cookbooks, it's pretty much the only thing I like to read these days. That being the case, it's really the only type of IF that I enjoy playing. No matter how beautiful, masterful and moving a piece of IF is, if it isn't surreal and horrific, I'm not buying.

This frustrates me because I can't find any truly good horror IF. I say this with the disclaimer that I haven't finished Anchorhead and I've barely started Shreds & Patches.

In searching IFDB, there are shockingly very few games tagged as horror, comparitively. When I do find it, it's flagged as "Lovecraft crap", basically, which I can't understand.

Just played Shade for the first time. Just now. Just played through it. Twice. Hated it. Absolutely hated it. About five minutes into it, I already knew what the end result was and was just trying to see what profundity would accompany the actual revalation. There was none. Just a "my turn". Maybe the game is too smart for me, but I don't even know what the hell that means, forget being deeply affected by it. This isn't to say the game is bad or that I could do better. I just... don't get it and it didn't move me. I didn't find anything about it "creepy" or "scary" in the most charitable definition of the term.

Ecdysis... I absolutely loved this. Not because it was particularly well written, because I don't think it was. But I do think it was ballsy. And it was Lovecraftian. Very Lovecraftian. I happen to be a fan of Lovecraft. I happen to have two plush Cthulhus on my desk at work. One is wearing a straw hat and a Hawaiin shirt and is sporting several pins of Lovecraft and Crowley. Holdovers from a younger, more ignorant day. Beside the point...

Played "One Eye Open". Hated it. Very well executed game. Very campy and desperate. Everything eats you. The washing machine can eat you. The laundry chute can eat you. The hallway can eat you. It's very Star Wars Meets Silent Hill. Lots of potential for an excellent psychological thriller/surreal horror. Never met that expectation for me. Tried too hard and I wound up quitting about twenty minutes in.

Games I've been put off playing: Lydia's Heart, Dead Cities, Critical Breach. I tried Slouching some time ago, but for some reason got put off by it and just never picked it up again.

So to come back to my original point: why all the Lovecraft hate? And why the comparative void of horror in IF? Is it too cliche? Has Lovecraft become cliche? What isn't cliche? What hasn't been done time and time and time and time again? Psychiatric hospitals? Check. Hordes of random animals/insects? Check. Viruses? Check. In a medium ripe with possibility, we get "Shade" and "Gonna Eat You Up Hallways".

I want something that's going to make me think. Shade showed that Plotkin has an interesting take on what dying in the desert feels like if you're in limbo or something, despite probably having never died in the desert or been in limbo. But that didn't make it scary. Anchorhead is still the proverbial carrot. Ecdysis was perfect bite-sized horror, despite the vehicle making no sense to someone not having ridden shotgun.

So... what gives?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:34 am 
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Also Warbler's Nest was neither horror nor creepy. It was actually a pretty accurate jab at old world ignorance. It stuck with you. But it wasn't scary. Plus...

Spoiler: show
I know that this is all based on folklore. I know I'm not gonna chuck a baby in the river, no matter how much the game tells me that it might be my only chance at peace. So while it tried (and tried well) to convince me that maybe I didn't think what I had thought I thought, it still didn't convince me to hurl a screaming infant to its watery death, so...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:47 am 
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Quote:
why all the Lovecraft hate?


What Lovecraft hate? I like Lovecraft pastiches.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:53 am 
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(To be clear, I like Lovecraft too, but he didn't write any IF, so in that realm we're stuck with pastiches.)

It looks like you're saying that you only like Lovecraftian IF but you won't play any game that's labelled "Lovecraftian" in IFDB. This appears to be a problem, but I probably misunderstand you.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:49 am 
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I4L wrote:
So to come back to my original point: why all the Lovecraft hate? And why the comparative void of horror in IF? Is it too cliche?


The Lovecraft-hate puzzles me, too, but there's a lot of knee-jerk this-and-that at the vocal edges of the IF mob. I don't take it as really representing anything but the vocal edges, though, since when IF folk do settle in to write something horrorish, it's very often Lovecraftian. And bravo to that. Personally, I didn't cotton to Anchorhead, but I think Shreds and Patches is good stuff.

Void of horror: Not sure, really. I've seen ample evidence that there's interest in playing it.

The phrase "too cliche" does not parse. :D No such thing (well, provided it's cliche-as-language rather than cliche-passed-off-as-substance ... and I think the knee-jerk reaction people have to cliche is mostly founded on the presumption that any given use of cliche will be the latter rather than the former). The letter "L" has been done. The color blue has been done. Having been done means nothing if we're talking about tools and components, and cliche, used properly, is a pile of tools and components. It's only when someone takes some blue paint, slaps a big "L" on a canvas, and calls it artistic license instead of laziness, that we get into trouble.

So, I dunno :( I'm more of a space-opera, hardboiled-crime and trad-fantasy guy myself, and I feel all three of those are under-represented as well, at least in modern works ... I gather that, with some writers, there's such a strong apparent need to make things distinguished from genre work that good genre work becomes a bit neglected, the rarest of gems (ironically) ... the people who could do it well, avoid it, and the people who don't avoid it are often ... still learning the fundamentals of their craft, let's say.

So, yeah. I dunno :(

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:00 am 
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I4L wrote:
So to come back to my original point: why all the Lovecraft hate?

Because he is an awful writer? I know that Duncan is going to kick me for this, but I did give the man a chance; although I had giving up on him, I was persuaded to read At the Mountains of Madness, and made a good faith effort to like it. But even that supposed magnum opus was bad. Not as bad as most of his other stuff, but still quite bad. I wrote a short analysis of it, but it is in Dutch.

Which doesn't mean I cannot enjoy a good Lovecraft-inspired game. I loved Anchorhead and The King of Shreds and Patches, both of which are explicitly based on Lovecraft. But even there, although these games are very good and I enjoyed them greatly, it was the Lovecraft stuff that least appealed to me. Why? I tried to explain that in my analysis of King:
Quote:
Lovecraftian horror is a strange genre, because its very premises set the writer up for failure. For what is its essence? Lovecraft took the gothic tale of terror and pushed it towards transcendence--a dark, anti-humanistic transcendence. Perhaps it is said most clearly in the first sentences of his famous The Call of Cthulhu:
Quote:
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

One can immediately see why this vision is attractive to the reader and the writer of horror: where the gothic tale was always only an escape from the rationality of our daily lives, never to be taken quite seriously, the Lovecraftian tale presents itself as a full-fledged alternative to rationalism. Yes, your science seems useful... but! You believe you understand the universe... but! With Lovecraft, horror gains a metaphysical import which it had hitherto lacked.

So why do I claim it sets the writer up for failure? Because those things and beings that are so alien that mere knowledge of them makes us insane, cannot be represented, cannot be captured in language--and of course it is precisely the writer's job to put his subject matter in language. At the end of a Lovecraftian tale, when the horror finally appears in person, the writer has only three basic options. First, he can try to describe the monster, as an "awful squid-head with writhing feelers" for instance. Second, he can describe the effect of seeing the monster on human beings: "Of the six men who never reached the ship, he thinks two perished of pure fright in that accursed instant." Third, he can tell (rather than show) us that the horror transcends human categories: "The Thing cannot be described—there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order." Or he can do some combination of the three, as Lovecraft did in The Call of Cthulhu, from which all these citations were taken.

But each of these three possibilities is a failure. If the thing is described, we laugh. Writhing feelers? It's only a giant squid! Are we supposed to believe in the metaphysical import of giant squids, and science's inability to deal with them? If we are told that the people around the horror go mad, we rightly ask why they go mad. What happens to them? What do they see? In what sense is this thing not just a giant squid? If, finally, the writer tells us that the horror cannot be put into words, he merely admits his own failure as a writer. Thus, we have a trilemma from which no escape is possible--and Lovecraft himself is among those who fail to escape, as is shown by passages like this one: "The Thing cannot be described—there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled." A mountain stumbled? Did it trip over its own foothills, or what? The image evokes laughter rather than terror.

I don't know if this is helpful to you, but it is my explanation of why there is such a thing as Lovecraft hate.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:08 am 
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VictorGijsbers wrote:
--and of course it is precisely the writer's job to put his subject matter in language.


I've spotted your misunderstanding for you :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:13 am 
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The simple answer to "Why isn't there more good [genre] IF?" is just that there isn't enough good IF for there to be a deep field of any particular genre. Horror is one of the more common IF genres, but if a few key works don't click for you, there's not much left.

And horror is a genre strongly defined by the kind of feeling it induces in its readers, so it-doesn't-work-as-$GENRE-for-me is going to be a lot more subjective. This goes double for Lovecraft: if the cosmic-horror stuff doesn't quite click for you, you're left with something with a lot of silly tentacles, purple prose and nineteenth-century anxieties. (For what it's worth, I don't think that IF has a particular hate-on for Lovecraft; Lovecraftian horror is more dominant in IF horror than it is in most media, and Anchorhead heads up the canon.)

I4L wrote:
Also Warbler's Nest was neither horror nor creepy. It was actually a pretty accurate jab at old world ignorance. It stuck with you. But it wasn't scary. Plus...

Spoiler: show
I know that this is all based on folklore. I know I'm not gonna chuck a baby in the river, no matter how much the game tells me that it might be my only chance at peace. So while it tried (and tried well) to convince me that maybe I didn't think what I had thought I thought, it still didn't convince me to hurl a screaming infant to its watery death, so...

Spoiler: show
Warbler's Nest works very well as horror if you're not sure what the genre is. If you decide early on that it's not a world where elves really exist, it'll fall flat, so I can see why it didn't click for some people. But it's very effective as horror if you're genuinely unsure what kind of story you're in.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:21 pm 
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maga wrote:
This goes double for Lovecraft: if the cosmic-horror stuff doesn't quite click for you, you're left with something with a lot of silly tentacles, purple prose and nineteenth-century anxieties.


With Lovecraft himself, yes, you get purple prose and nineteenth-century anxieties. You almost never get tentacles, though; that's just ... that's like characterizing a "typical" geek as having coke-bottle glasses that have been taped in the middle, and a pocket protector. Yes, it has happened but it's not even remotely typical of HPL's stories. There are no tentacles in [insert the name of almost every HPL story ever].

With Lovecraft pastiche, you get any of those things to varying degrees. In general, I agree with Victor on Lovecraft's qualities as a writer. Lovecraft desperately wanted to be Poe and Dunsany simultaneously, and sadly for all of us, he frequently succeeded. I am not a fan of Lovecraft pastiche (here I'm using "pastiche" specifically to mean writing or games which honestly and sincerely want to emulate Lovecraft's own work and style) because it tends to preserve the badness of Lovecraft without contributing anything like the good of him.

But then there's a third thing (and I think one of the things that confuses the topic is that there really are these three things): which is Lovecraftian gaming which is not pastiche (in the narrow sense used above), where the goal is to plunder Lovecraft for the good bits and casually discard the rest. No purple prose, no trembling nebbishes required (optional, sometimes used ironically, or in one case I can think of used as a really fun and non-ironic contrast-study), no thanks on the tentacles (though again, maybe ironically). But still jam-packed with the cool stuff Lovecraft brought to the pulp-fantasy table. Lovecraft done way, way better than Lovecraft ... and this third thing is something gamers can be astonishingly good at. Mind you, this stuff is only sometimes horror, so may not be satisfying to the OP ... but even Lovecraft was only sometimes horror, IMO. Most often just dark pulp-fantasy.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:47 pm 
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zarf wrote:
It looks like you're saying that you only like Lovecraftian IF but you won't play any game that's labelled "Lovecraftian" in IFDB.


That was my read of the situation as well. Then I thought that maybe I4L meant that games on IFDB were literally "flagged as Lovecraft crap," but my search for the "Lovecraft crap" tag on IFDB returned nothing.

I4L wrote:
And why the comparative void of horror in IF?


I largely agree with maga that there's just not enough IF for there to be well-populated genres. However, I also wonder if it might have something to do with the way that horror* often plays either on the disconnect between the audience's view and the characters' ("Don't go in the basement!") or on complicated character tensions/loyalties (pretty much any "converting" monster, like vampires or zombies). The former seems like a waste of interactivity -- though I'm sure there are clever ways to explore/exploit this -- and the latter requires more NPC depth than most games have.

*as I understand it; I'm not a big fan of horror other than the extremely cheesy kind


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