intfiction.org

The Interactive Fiction Community Forum
It is currently Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:47 pm
Posts: 10
I can see only benefits of doing that: Faster development because more people could take a stab at improving Inform, improving the Inform parser (I mean cross compiler into Inform 6 here) using the advancements in the natural language processing field (A thing a single dev may not be able to fully realize, despite all the work that has been put so far into Inform) so it can understand more ambiguous sentences and phrases, faster development (the last version seems to be from 2015).

Plus quality of life stuff such as
- Ability in the Inform IDE to separate the second half into its own window which would help in multi-monitor setups with non-uniform resolutions so you can have docs on one screen and the code on the other.
- Ability to separate sources into separate files that are then joined into the main file using an instruction similar to C++'s #include, which would help organizing the code e.g. on a chapter-by-chapter basis.

If that sounds like a feature wishlist, it's because it kinda is. But many of these (e.g. the IDE stuff or the include thing, which would probably use a phrase like "Put a file <filename> here as part of the source) I could try and do on my own if Inform would be fully open-sourced.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:49 pm
Posts: 8
To make that happen, the copyright holders of Inform 7 will need to actively grant license to recipients under some free-software license. (They could choose the Apache License 2.0, for consistency with Inform 6, as an obvious choice.)

You may want to lend your support to the same request made at the Inform 7 suggestions site: https://inform7.uservoice.com/forums/57 ... -on-github


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 5676
The IDEs are open source.

As for the compiler, please be aware that Graham doesn't read this forum, so making an argument here is low-impact. The link above is the official suggestion line.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:49 pm
Posts: 8
zarf wrote:
As for the compiler, please be aware that Graham doesn't read this forum, so making an argument here is low-impact. The link above is the official suggestion line.


Is Graham the only copyright holder in the compiler, standard library, etc.? My understanding is that we need a discussion among all the current copyright holders in the work, to grant license under free-software terms.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 2496
Graham, Emily, and Zarf probably share copyright, at least over parts of it.

Make sure you read Graham's recent presentation for an update on his plans: http://www.emshort.com/ifmu/inform.html

He does want to open source it eventually, but he hasn't thought it was ready previously. Many of us would disagree, but it's not our call to make.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 5676
Yes, the I7 compiler and the Standard Rules are entirely written by Graham.

Quote:
Graham, Emily, and Zarf probably share copyright, at least over parts of it.


Not me. I don't think Emily either, although she wrote a bunch of the manual examples.

The I6 parser and template code is more mixed, but that's because its history goes back to Inform 6, which is open source. (Perl license, by the way, not Apache.) Sorting that out will not be a big issue.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:34 pm
Posts: 5289
Location: Burlington, VT
Dannii wrote:
Graham, Emily, and Zarf probably share copyright, at least over parts of it.

Make sure you read Graham's recent presentation for an update on his plans: http://www.emshort.com/ifmu/inform.html

He does want to open source it eventually, but he hasn't thought it was ready previously. Many of us would disagree, but it's not our call to make.


This passage is directly relevant to the question:

Quote:
(3) Although the tools in this chain were in one sense independent, they were cranky to use without the Inform UI as life support system. They were also inconsistent in niggling low-level ways — handling long filenames, say, or filenames with strange Unicode in.

(4) The unreleased tools needed to build and test Inform were far worse, some being huge Perl scripts which were just mazes of twisty little passages. They were nowhere close to being releaseable in quality. One reason Inform hasn’t been open source in some years is that this infrastructure was such a mess. But not being open source is an existential threat right there.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 230
Presumably the "twisty little passages" are being fixed with this cleanup. The article doesn't mention though, whether the announced 2018 release will be open sourced.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:06 am
Posts: 1530
Also note that these features already exist:

darkhog wrote:
Plus quality of life stuff such as
- Ability in the Inform IDE to separate the second half into its own window which would help in multi-monitor setups with non-uniform resolutions so you can have docs on one screen and the code on the other.
- Ability to separate sources into separate files that are then joined into the main file using an instruction similar to C++'s #include, which would help organizing the code e.g. on a chapter-by-chapter basis.

You can open another project in a separate window and browse the documentation in that one. Source code can be separated to different files by using project-specific extensions (see ch. 27.3. in the manual.)

Even if these aren't exactly what you're looking for you don't need compiler or core Inform support to make them, only the IDE code which is already open source as mentioned.

_________________
BlogTextureVorple


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:47 pm
Posts: 10
matt w wrote:
This passage is directly relevant to the question:

Quote:
(3) Although the tools in this chain were in one sense independent, they were cranky to use without the Inform UI as life support system. They were also inconsistent in niggling low-level ways — handling long filenames, say, or filenames with strange Unicode in.

(4) The unreleased tools needed to build and test Inform were far worse, some being huge Perl scripts which were just mazes of twisty little passages. They were nowhere close to being releaseable in quality. One reason Inform hasn’t been open source in some years is that this infrastructure was such a mess. But not being open source is an existential threat right there.

That's nothing stopping Inform from being open-sourced, really. If anything, the more volunteers would be able to clean up the code base much faster than a lone programmer, with many other things to do, things that pay, ever could. And "huge Perl scripts which were just mazes of twisty little passages" is a tautology, I think. Nothing wrong with Perl as a language, but it's very good at producing incomprehensible code, that's kinda Perl's thing.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group